Archive for the ‘Social stratification’ Category

History, faith and Indian historians A rejoinder to Romila Thapar.

July 16, 2009
History, faith and Indian historians A rejoinder to Romila Thapar.
Published on September 29th, 2007 In Uncategorized |  Views 1116
The following is my response to the Editor, The Hindu. However, “The Hindu” has not been publishing views opposing to its ideology. Generally, it is said that N. Ram does not encourage anything that is against Marxism etc. Whatever, may be the fact, the copy is posted here for debate and discussion:A rejoinder to Romila Thapar Romila Thapar, an eminent historian of India has written her opinion in “The Hindu” under the caption, “Where fusion cannot work – faith and history” (The Hindu, September 28, 2007). For the article, see: http://www.thehindu.com/2007/0928/stories/2007092855231200.htm and with reference to this, I respond as follows:

Historians have never been honest in dealing with the historical issues involving faith and history, and there only faith and history have been brought into conflict. It is not fusing faith and history or vice versa. Historians know very well that it is their belief that history can be only based on what is written or has been written. It is their faith that they do not believe that if lived man of one million or 1 billon did not live if he has not left any historical record. But how scientists would say about it?

Historians believe about past events that they should have happened like this; at the same time other set of historians interpret that the same events could have happened in different way. Historians have accepted that they do not require any objectivity in their historical studies or methodology. So again, it their strong faith that they believe that objectivity is not required. But any other professional would accept it? Therefore historical faith and history cannot be independent. Without faith of the past or faith ion archaeological methods, historians cannot work independently. When historians have decided to differ, there would be difference only. Historians believed that Aryans invaded India destroyed Dravidians and so on. At that time itself, the believers and even Sanskrit scholars clarified that it was gross misinterpretation of Vedas. But none cared. Now, the historians have retracted, but the books remain containing such unhistorical writings. So how can their premises, their methods of enquiry, and their formulations be dissimilar?

You say, “When historians speak of the historicity of person, place, or event, they require evidence — singular or plural — that proves the existence of any of these and this evidence is based on data relating to space and time. The two important spaces in the Valmiki Ramayana are Ayodhya and Lanka, on the location of which scholarly opinion differs”. Yes, what are those “scholarly opinions”? An opinion is nothing but belief or faith only as their views is estimated depending upon their attitudes and outlook.

What you say about the foot print of Mohammed kept in Jama Masjid or the hair kept in a Kashmir mosque? Have you ever recommended for chemical analysis or DNA test? Have historians ever tried their scientific methodology? Where has gone their scientific temper? You claim, “It is said that the Ram Setu is cultural heritage and therefore cannot be destroyed even if it is a natural geological formation and not man-made. Has the idea become the heritage? To search for a non-existent man-made structure takes away from the imaginative leap of a fantasy and denies the fascinating layering of folk-lore”. When H. D. Sankalia [1972:46] asserted that there were no evidences for Asoka, Chandragupta Maurya etc., as no horizontal excavations had been done, historians did not worry and search for Asoka or Chandragupta. When Vincent Smith [1990:231-267] wrote that Asoka killed his brothers etc., you also repeated the song in your book [1963:20-54]. Accepting Kalhana as historian, you ignored the Asoka, as he recorded. So why can’t deny this Asoka and accept the Asoka of Kalhana? It is only “the majority idea / opinion / faith” that only this Asoka could be “Mauryan Asoka” in spite of lacking historical evidences, created and established one Asoka! So even existed person was consigned to imaginary leap of fantasy and made fable!

Even after the so-called “authorized / critical edition” [Vol I-1960, II-1962, III-1963, IV-1965, V-1966, VI-1971], the mention of different Ramayanas is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

As a historian, it is surprising that you have lied to the whole world like this:  “This does not happen with the biographies of those who were known to be historical figures and who founded belief systems: the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammad. Their biographies adhere largely to a single story-line and this helps to endorse the ‘official’ narrative of their life. Their existence is recorded in other sources as well that are not just narratives of their lives but have diverse associations. The historicity of the Buddha, for example, is established, among other things, by the fact that a couple of centuries after he died, the emperor Ashoka on a visit to Lumbini had a pillar erected to commemorate the Buddha’s place of birth. This is recorded in an inscription on the pillar”.

6      This does not happen with the biographies of those who were known to be historical figures and who founded belief systems: the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammad.

It is well known that there are no biographies of Buddha, Jesus Christ and Mohammed as you asserted. This is blatant lie. Give me references of such biographies. What was written after such existed or non-existed personalities after them perhaps even after 300 years cannot be a biography. About different Buddhas, I am surprised that you say nothing is there. You do not remember how a Buddha had to come to fight with Adi Sankara? Moreover, it is well known about the different versions of Jesus, Christs etc., even before and after the so-called Jesus Christ combine. About Mohammed, I am also afraid of giving details just like you. Any way, just I tell there are books – M. Cook [1983:65], P. Crone [1987:75-76], Ibn Warraq [1995:66-85].

6      Their biographies adhere largely to a single story-line and this helps to endorse the ‘official’ narrative of their life.

Why they should largely adhere to a single line? How this helps “official” narrative? How “official” it could be of “their life”? Why can’t you write as a historian instead of believer here?

That the “biographers” were compelled or forced to accept or adhere to a single line proves that many lines were left out. And still small number of biographers who did not adhere to a single line is also exposed. Then, what you are talking about? Majority view and minority view? Condemn the “lesser” and accept or approve the Larger”! Adhere to one-line and forget many lines! What sort of historian you are? That man Karunanidhi has become a senile man and talks differently. Do you also do the same think as a senile lady?

How you endorse such one-liners? Is there any historical methodology to that effect? Which University teaches such approving of one-line biography by eminent historians like you?

Do not fool Indians. Ernest Renan, J. M. Robertson and so many reputed authorities are there on the subject matter of Jesus Christ and Christianity. Any way, it is your cowardice gets exposed, as you never whispered anything, when there was much Christian opposition to screening of “Da Vinci Code”. However, when the so-called “Hindutva judgment” came out, you vociferously jumped and asserted that “We would go to Court”. Everything appeared in “the Hindu” itself with your face. Madam, what happened? But now you come siding with atheists, anti-Hindus, anti-nationals as a historian suppressing the recent past and forgetting your own past!

6      Their existence is recorded in other sources as well that are not just narratives of their lives but have diverse associations.

So also Rama.

Why then your argument goes differently.

In fact, their associations differ. But, Ramayana core story, as H. D. Sankalia in his “Ramayana Myth or Reality” that it had been there nearly for 3000 years [1972:62].

How “That their existences is recorded in other sources” help you to decide?

It may be noted that historians and scholars have pointed out that Christ story was copied from
Krishna! Rama was repeatedly mentioned in different literature not because of variance, but influence and impact created on the people well before 2500-3000 YBP. Was the Sangam poet a fool to record in his poem about his discussion with his army about the mode of crossing over the ocean to Lanka”. How that poet was imaging that that Lanka should have been the Lanka of Ramayana in his times i.e, 2500 – 3000 YBP?

6      The historicity of the Buddha, for example, is established, among other things, by the fact that a couple of centuries after he died, the emperor Ashoka on a visit to Lumbini had a pillar erected to commemorate the Buddha’s place of birth. This is recorded in an inscription on the pillar

Recently, there has been lot of information coming out as to how the British historians including the ASI officials, specifically Alois Anton Furher had fabricated the Stone Casket with Asokan inscriptions and planted there. For his forgey, he was dismissed from the service. The sudden disappearance of Buhler also intriguing in the context. For more details see: http://www.lumkap.org.uk . note now also the ASI officials are in a soup!

6      “From the point of view of archaeology and history, the Archaeological Survey of
India was correct in stating that there is to date no evidence to conclusively prove the historicity of Rama. The annulling of this statement was also a political act. Reliably proven evidence is of the utmost significance to history but not so to faith”.

The present ASI officials are not like A. A. Fuherer to fabricate or forge Asokan inscriptions or like John Marshall to suppress the ASI report of Banrejee. They could have verified the greatest Indian archaeologist view in their affidavit. But, evidently, being the stooges of politicians, as politicians they acted ad they would get the sack, unless they are innocent or have guts to expose the politicians, who ordered them to do so. Leave alone the ASI people. The ASGCS / other standing councils who drafted the affidavit, vetted the affidavits etc.., also are responsible. Therefore, if all acted as a gang to malign and blaspheme Rama, it is not history but mystery. And do not you think that such culprits should be punished?

6      Blasphemy does not lie in doubting historicity.

Yes, Romila you doubt the historicity of others also as listed – Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammed – Do not be contended with one-line official version. You are a historian. You should go by primary sources – historical documents. Nothing more, nothing less!

To what extent you can doubt the historicity of them along with Rama or otherwise, we are going to see. Or children will wait and see!

Of course the question of blasphemy, who will decide? The Courts? Let us see!

6      The historian is not required to pronounce on the legitimacy of faith. But the historian can try and explain the historical context to why, in a particular space and time, a particular faith acquires support. And we need to remind ourselves that our heritage has been constantly enriched not just by those of faith but also by those who contend with faith.

Yes, you know very well if you start analyzing with the legitimacy of faith of – Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammed.

So you decide which faith has to be supported in a particular space in time?

Accordingly, it is evident that you do not support the faith of Rama.

Yes, Rama baktas have been living with content even after what you historians have done in the case of Ramajanmabhumi issue.

Of course, they may not be knowing what your people have been doing in the Indian History Congress presenting papers taking Ayodhya to Afganisthan etc. Note that even in
Calicut, during last IHC, you have to live on Rama just like Karyu. The lady who got selected as GS said some thing on Rama! Poor Rama-baktas kept quite.

6      If there is a strong faith — in the religious sense — among millions of people, then it does not require to be protected through massive demonstrations and the killing of innocent persons, through political mobilisation. Nor do archaeology and history have to be brought in to keep that faith intact. Faith finds its own place and function, as do archaeology and history. And the place and function of each is separate.

Yeah, oh woman, you do not know how many Ramabaktas were burned and killed. You want Rama-baktas to forget everything. But try to interpret mischievously, what happened to the three in Bangalore. Note, it is because of Karu, that happened. Fighting with Karnataka, he earned enormous enmity with Kannadigas. And this man used to come there and say as he used to go to Gopalapuram and Oliver Road

. So not vulgarize the issue with your perversity. Do not suppress the facts.

The honesty of archeologists and historians, only Indians have to certify.

6      To say that the partial removal of an underwater formation in the Palk Straits is going to hurt the faith of millions is not giving faith its due. Is faith so fragile that it requires the support of an underwater geological formation believed to have been constructed by a deity?

You can blast Bamian Buddhas, you can destroy IVC. Like Aurangazeb you can go on demolish temples. Like Dr. F.J A. Flynn, you can smuggle artifacts and coins. Your historians and archaeologists aid and abet. But he would be caught red-handed in
Delhi airport. So demolish Rama-sethu! Yes, nothing will happen or happens.

6      Making faith into a political issue in order to win elections is surely offensive to faith?

Karu is doing that. Cong is coding that. None else links it with politics.

6      What is at issue is not whether Rama existed or not, or whether the underwater formation or a part of it was originally a bridge constructed at his behest. What is at issue is a different and crucial set of questions that require neither faith nor archaeology but require intelligent expertise: questions that are being willfully (sic) diverted by bringing in faith. Will the removal of a part of the natural formation eventually cause immense ecological damage and leave the coasts of south India and Sri Lanka open to catastrophes, to potential tsunamis in the future? Or can it be so planned that such a potentiality is avoided?

Scientists have discussed enough. I do not think you have ay competency here.

6      What would be the economic benefits of such a scheme in enhancing communication and exchange? Would the benefits reach out to local communities and if so, how? Equally important, one would like to know precisely what role will be played by the multinational corporations and their associates in
India. Who will finance and control the various segments of such an immense project? It is only when such details are made transparent that we will also get some clues to the subterranean activities that are doubtless already simmering. These are the questions that should be asked of this project and that at this point in time should be occupying public space.

Oh now, it is clear. You write like what Karu talked and talking. Do you have any alliance with Karu? The “Mount Road Maha Vishnu” has marriage alliance with Karu. You have connection with Ram. So also Karu, Kanimozhi and Ramajayam with “The Hindu”. So what is the alliance. At whose behest, you are writing and talking the language of Karunanidhi?

Any way thank you for exposing yourself.

Thank you for revealing that Karunanidhi, Congress, you and others are doing this only for election.

VEDAPRAKASH

(29-09-2007)

57, Poonamalle High Road,

Maduravoyal, Chennai – 602 102.

letters@thehindu.co.in, vedamvedaprakash@yahoo.com

To

The Editor,

The Hindu,

Mount Road,

Chennai – 600 002.

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Divine scandal, Theological corruption and religious perversity orUntouchable Gods and Untouchables!

July 16, 2009

Divine scandal, Theological corruption and religious perversity orUntouchable Gods and Untouchables!

Untouchable Gods” and “touchable dual-believers”: As Indians, we have heard enough about “untouchables”, but have we ever heard about “Untouchable Gods”? No, not at all. But, it appears that the Christians and Muslims are trying to bring such “Untouchable Gods” in India.  The Christians teach Indians that Christian God could be three or one or one-in-three and so on, but the Muslims have been persisting upon the one, the only-one not more or not less!

The Christian God or Jesus Christ could be in different colours but Allah cannot be with any colour. Even, that God may appear according to White white, Black black, Brown brown and so on. But Allah is colourless. Again God can be any racial, ethnic and ideological, but Allah cannot be so! So the Partnership of Christian-Muslim combine gives a “dual” or “untouchable” nature of their Gods! However, they want to in theological company to do divine business of being-together.

They claim about their wonderful concept of eating together to advocate “toucbability”, but a Hindu woman would be removed from service wearing a nose-ring, as it could bring microbes! A priest or pastor can lick and give and believers can take, no microbes nothing. Unseen cannot do anything in such cases! Thus, we have suddenly overt-covert, explicit-implicit, open-covered, barren-hidden, naked-covered categories of “dual-believers” with “Untouchable Gods”. Their Gods are “Untouchable Gods”, “Unseen Gods”, “Unheard Gods”, “Unspeaking Gods” and “Untastable Gods”, because, they are beyond the perception of senses of man! Moreover, they openly believe that their Gods cannot help in getting reservation for the potential dalit-converts., but Supreme Court can do. Thus, we are caught between “Untouchable Gods” and “touchable dual-believers”!

Secret converts believers with hidden faith: Can a real convert have any secrecy maintained about his conversion? Having turned his mind away from the Old God to New God, how can he turn again this-side and that-side? What type of “turning” it is?

Believers with hidden faith! My God, the faith has to be hidden in mind to hold his God tight. Otherwise, he has to cry, “Oh God, Oh God, why you have forsaken me”. Immediately, the Christian partner, Muslim would jump and declare, see, your God is praying to our God only! “Eli, Eli” according to Muslim is Eli-Ela-Elahi-Elohim-Alaha-Allah and so on! Anyway, we need not worry about Eli or Allah or Christ, let them decide.

The usage of expression “Secret converts” appears to be a fraudulent one, as the so-called converts have no guts to believe either the abandoned God or embraced God. Actually, the converting Christians should feel shame about their useless and disgracing act.

V     Why then they convert and fool the weak-converts, who do not have any mental strength in godly-affairs?

V     God and religion requires conviction, confidence and belief.

V     If the converters and converts do not have such qualities, it is not only dishonor and scandal, but also cheating the God himself.

V     Can any sensible and matured believer or pious one accept such divine scandal, theological corruption and religious perversity?

Western-funded congregations: Let the poor or anybody turn to Mary, Jehovah, Allah or anybody, it does not matter in the globalization of industry and business. But it is ironical, farce and mockery to talk about western funded congregations. To claim that, “This allows them to seek opportunities beyond government sector in the booming information-technology and services industries that put a premium on the westernized outlook and English-language skills”, is again deceptive. The westernized outlook has only corrupted the Indian system, as we see so many ladies going astray.

Z    Otherwise, why a Muslim Liyakat Ali Khan should stoop down to Cyber-sex with all his IT-expertise?

Z    Why the Christian Yacob Saravanan be after so many shady women with the corrupted money, that too, swindled in the name of God.

Z    Does the western-funded congregations offer such sexy-opportunities backed with IT?

Playing double-game to fool two Gods: If the cited case of Venkatesh Gunti is a fact then that person must have been cheater of two Gods. Ironically, he proves that the new embraced or believed God is useless.

N     It is not understand why he should bastardize his conscience to be with two-congregations?

N     Why western-funded congregations failed?

N     Is it not a gambler or smuggler or criminal using two or more passports to go around and fool all?

N     Why such sinning crooks, wicked frauds and evil villains should be encouraged in the name of God and religion?

The new twist given to Conversion frauds: If a person echoes hiding his Christian faith, “The government is forcing us to lie”, what sort of Christian is he? Shame, instead of that, he can be kicked out of Christianity by a true Christian. This type of theological frauds, double-cross cross-bearers can cross anybody at any time. It is a great sin to blaspheme the Christ crucified on the cross, if at all, a Christian believes in the Christ or God. That he is maintaining “double-life” is gross manipulation of religion and he is not all religious then. His pleading or blurting out “Whatever the consequences, God will take care of us”! Which God would take care of him? The past God, present God or future God? What nonsense is it? Who is making him to lie to the government, to the God and to himself?

If the Christian God or Islamic God cannot do how Indian Supreme Court can do? Paradoxically, it is mentioned repeatedly that it has been petitioned to Supreme Court, it is currently reviewing several challenges filed by Christian and Muslim Dalits etc. , shows the super-duping theological fraud.

6      How the Supreme Court could be superior that Christian or Islamic God?

6      When the Gods, with whom the new converts or secret converts or covert-coverts rely upon, pray him openly or secretly, or at least believe him staunchly, why that the Christian and Muslim leaders go on approach the Court and Parliament with political pressure instead of God-power?

6      They unashamedly and immorally prove that the Political Power is superior to the God-power. As otherwise, the leaders who talk nonsense or fool all with all their sermons etc., must quit their bogus-life and die on the Cross!

Religious frauds depend on frauds only: Yes, the cat is out again! “Indian groups have tried for decades to win a similar exception for Christianity, which is believed to have arrived in India when St. Thomas disembarked in Kerala in the first century”. When they could not believe the Gods, why then they believe that some thing came to India exactly in the first century and so on? How that it exactly disembarked embarking everything? And it should choose only Kerala? Excellent! Already we have seen a gang of frauds – Ganesh Iyer alias Acharya Paul etc., colluded with Arulappa, Deivanayagam etc., in the case of “St. Thomas fraud”. Arulappa and Acharya Paul had been fooling with Retzinger and successful in appraising the then Pope also about their wonderful fraudulent research carried out in Tamilnadu! Shame, these guys do not bother about the High Court proceedings etc., as they perhaps, only believe in Supreme Court. They do not worry about “the Day of Judgment of God”, but in the “judgment of man”.

The Dalits – the main source of potential converts! Wonderful, at lest, they have confessed that they dealing with “Dalits” only as commodities and not as human beings! After all, they talk in globalization terminology, western-funded congregations, booming information-technology and services industries, premium on the westernized outlook and English-language skills. What more is required for the “Dalits” to be rated, treated and traded? Vey potential in deed and that too the main source, so that they can become the main source of potential converts. After assessing, considering or branding them so, why they worry about their double-life, double-act, double-cross etc?

Partnership in outsourcing – Joseph D’Souza and P. K. Ahmad Sabir: After all the globalization, westernization and industrialization have to work with God also. When God can be sold through cyber-space, why not through Supreme Court or Parliament? Definitely, the useless Gods, in the sense, as the Court and man-made law are believed, could be sold out and the main source of potentiality could be concentrated. After all these “Dalits”: have to be in a state of “duality” as has been confessed by the Christian and Muslim authorities. If they win in the Court, they can be Christians or Muslims overtly or covertly Hindus or vice versa. If they loose, no problem, as stated! So it is a game of “head or tail, we win game”. Let them play, the partnership. Only thing is the poor “Dalits” have to be outsourced to outreach!

Appeal to Westerners, Western media and Western Intellectuals: It is requested that the westerners, western media and western intellectuals be objective to the Indian issues and present the facts correctly without any bias, prejudice or pee-determined mind-setup. Try to respect the feelings of the others also. By mere propaganda or sheer media-power or absolute-influence do not try to overwhelm and overpower Indians with muscle-twisting theology or ideological religiosity. We know you can make Jesus Christ to come with AK-47 or any advanced machinery, as the missionary is ready with “liberation theology”. And of course, your Partnership may wage crusade-jihads for which the gullible, naïve and innocent Hindus are no match. Do not exploit SCs / Harijans etc., by calling “Dalits” or converting poetically as you proudly announce. If you bully Supreme Court with international power, then, what type of judiciary, we can expect? If you intimidate Indians with your economic threats, terrorize with fiscal sanctions, oppress with financial controls and suppress by all means, who are oppressed and suppressed? Do not make mockery of theorization with ideological and verbal terrorism. If you want Super Gods, Superlative Gods, Supreme Gods, please have them, but do not suppress and oppress with such Gods. Do not make our Gods oppressed and suppressed! Be honest and satisfied with your jealous, aggressive and envious Gods and we are happy with our “DALIT GODS”.

\   With such “DALIT GODS”, we continue to live as “DALIT INDIANS” and “DALIT BEILEVERS” with self-respect and honour, but we would not be “dual-believers” or “believes with hidden faith”.

\   As Swami Vivekananda proclaimed, we declare our religion and faith on our foreheads, in ears and noses.

\   Yes, every limb, blood, nerve, cell, DNA etc., would live and die with open belief – exhibited in stones and trees, hills and mountains, rivers and oceans and of course – men and animals, monkeys and elephants.

\   Do not worry about our idolatry, but try to cleanse your mind.

\   We are proud of our religion in consistent with nature – living and non-living. Be satisfied with your “theological-haves” and do not worry about our “theological-have-nots”!

This with reference to several articles appearing in internet, as my attention has een drawn my attention to them:

The Untouchables In India, ‘Untouchables” convert to Christianity – and face extra bias Yaroslav Trofimov The Wall Street Journal online

September 19, 2007

Dalits Situations in
India
Mukul Sharma Heinrich Boll Foundation
DAlits get ready for class-caste war Runko Rashidi (Posted by, as claimed) Indiainteracts
O Rama, oh Rama, You became the God and we the demons Iniyan Elango Ibid.

My responses are appearing in the site.

VEDAPRAKASH

21-09-2007.